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用孩子的眼光看世界

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如果要问我的书想传达什么,那就是:生活是困难的,但诗歌和美拯救我们。



嘉宾简介:


安娜·卡斯特卡尼李(Anna Castagnoli):意大利知名插画师,博洛尼亚童书展评委,2018站酷奖评审。


意大利插画师,出生于法国凡尔赛,现居西班牙巴塞罗那,父母为意大利人。她热爱文学、艺术史、心理分析。安娜·卡斯特卡尼李在美学哲学专业毕业后开始主要从事儿童绘本插画的创作。她的作品在意大利、法国、西班牙、比利时等国翻译并出版,也有两本在中国出版。她的童书也让苏珊亚内斯、基布利奥帕琴科、伊莎贝尔阿森诺、卡尔利切伍特等为她绘制插画。 


2008年她开始从事插画教育工作,并在2014年担任了博洛尼亚童书展评委。2017年她出版了针对儿童专业插画教育的“教科书”——《插画师手册》。目前,她和法国国家图书馆、西班牙幼儿图书馆等机构和院校合作开发针对儿童插画教育的课程。她同时还是意大利都林欧洲设计学院教授插画史,概念理论和插画技法。




站酷网:您出生于法国,父母是意大利人,之后在美国上学,现在居住在西班牙,不同国家的文化经历带给您什么影响?


You were born in France, your parents are Italian, and you went to school in the United States. Now you live in Spain. How did the cultural experience of different countries affect you?


安娜:就像从太空的舷窗看地球:一旦爱上地球,你会发现国家之间的边界也就不存在了。


It is like looking at the earth from a space porthole: one falls in love with the earth and it turns out that borders and borders between countries do not exist.



站酷网:您是哲学专业毕业的,为何会走上儿童插画创作道路?哲学专业对您创作有哪些影响?


You graduated with a major in philosophy, why did you decide to become a children’s illustrator? What influence does philosophy major have on your work?


安娜:走上这条道路十分偶然。大约在三十岁的时候,我在意大利的萨米德国际学校(http://fondazionezavrel.it/)上了一门暑期课程,我发现了一本图画书。在我看来,它似乎把我所有的热情都集中到了一起:艺术、文学、童年。


我学习哲学是为了回答我小时候关于人生的大问题:人生是什么,我们为什么活着,我们应该如何活着……在我看来,制作图画书是继续寻找这些答案的最好方式,我认为这更接近于童年的直觉而不是成年的直觉。


It was quite random. Around the age of thirty I took a summer course in the International School of Sarmede (http://fondazionezavrel.it/), in Italy, and I discovered the picture book. It seemed to me to bring together all my passions: art, literature, childhood. I studied philosophy to answer the big questions I had as a child about life: what it is, why we live it, how we should behave ... I make picture-books because it seems to me the best way to continue looking for these answers, which I think are closer to the intuitions of childhood than to those of adulthood.


《金色鸟舍》(The golden aviary)



站酷网:您创作过很多故事《The golden aviary》《 Super 8, a child autobiography》《 La caja de los recuerdos》《The incredible story of the terrible child》等,您的故事都在表达什么,在关注什么?最想传达给孩子的是什么?


You’ve created many stories: The golden aviary, Super 8, a child autobiography, La caja DE los recuerdos, The incredible story of The terrible child, etc. What are you trying to express and emphasize with your stories? What message do you want to convey the most to children? 


《速8》(Super 8)



安娜:我认为儿童读物不应该有道德说教。我认为他们应该传播一些神秘和神奇的东西,这些东西存在于我们的体内,包围着我们。作为一个艺术家,我在自己的内心寻找这些碎片。它们就像彩虹的碎片,我把它们拾起来放进本书里。当我还是个孩子的时候,我在书中寻找的就是这种耀眼的美,我希望我也能给现在的孩子们带去这些。


我认为美是世上至高的道德,孩子们知道。


如果要问我的书想传达什么,那就是:生活是困难的,但诗歌和美拯救我们。


I do not think books for children should have a moral message. I think they should transmit a fragment of the mystery and wonder that dwells within us and surrounds us. As an artist, I look for these fragments within myself. They are like pieces of rainbow. I put them in a book. It is this dazzling beauty that I was looking for in books when I was a child and that I hope to give children today. I think that beauty has more moral in itself than all the morals of the world. Children know it.If there is a message that goes through all of my books, it is this: life is difficult, but poetry and beauty save us.




站酷网:您在2014年担任博洛尼亚插画奖的评委,对于“好插画”是如何判定的,有哪些标准?


You were a judge of Bologna Children’s Book Fair in 2014. How did you decide what’s a good illustration? What kind of criteria did you use? 


安娜:吸引我的不是插画完美的技术,而是插画师在绘画时所体验到的一种情感的存在。我在寻找这种感觉,一种真实的、内在的东西,这些东西需要通过绘画与孩子们进行交流,而不是用绘画来取悦评审员。


It is not the technical perfection of an illustration that seduces me, but the presence of an emotion, of a feeling experienced by the illustrator at the moment of drawing. I was looking for this feeling. Something authentic, realized for an internal, certifiable need to communicate with children through drawing, and not to please jurors.



站酷网:您也是今年站酷奖的评审,站酷奖的主旨是发现和提高设计的价值,你怎么看待绘本的价值?


This year, you are a judge of ZCOOL Awards. The main purpose of ZCOOL Awards is to discover and enhance  the value of design. What do you think of the value of picture books? 



安娜:在我参加的不同评审工作中,我对插画的看法始终没有改变。我总是寻找一个插画师表达情感的能力和他的奇思妙想。看着站酷奖的诸多插画,我一直在想:这个设计是否能将我带入作者描绘的世界?我相信这个世界吗?我会选择给我带来最多感受的作品。


我也遇到了一些困难,因为我意识到很多表情、手势、图形符号,都属于一种我不太了解的文化,那就是中国文化。我不知道我是否能够深入理解它们,所以我用孩子的眼光去看他们,因为孩子是没有文化限制的。


My opinion on illustration has not changed in the different juries I attended. I always look for the ability of a illustrator to convey an emotion, a feeling of wonder. Looking at the many illustrations in ZCOOL I always wondered: does this design make me enter in a world or not? I believe in this world? I chose the works that brought me most in these worlds.


I had some difficulties because I realized that many expressions, gestures of the characters, graphic codes, belonged to a culture that I do not know, the Chinese one, I wondered if I was able to understand them in depth. I looked at them with the eyes of a child: even children do not yet have the codes of a culture.


《插画手册》(The Illustrator's Manual)



站酷网:您出版过一本书叫《The Illustrator's Manual》,从一个儿童插画创作者的身份转换为一个儿童插画教育者,最大的不同是什么,又是什么原因让您开始投身到插画教育中去?


You published a book called The Illustrator 's Manual. What’s the biggest difference between being a children’s illustrator and being a children’s illustrations educator? What made you want to engage in the education of children’s illustrations? 


安娜:这是一个有趣而又很难回答的问题。我认为最大的不同是,前一种情况下,我和孩子交谈,后一种情况下我和成年人交谈。它们是两种不同的语言,两种不同的方式。当我为孩子们写书的时候,那是因为我想用诗意的方式表达一些东西,这是一种更不理性、更深刻,也许是无意识的语言。当我教插画或批评时,我更多地使用我的理性思维,我的经验,我的文化,这样做是为了帮助别人制作美的书。


It's an interesting and difficult question. I think the biggest difference is that in one case I talk to children, in the other to adults. They are two different languages, two different motivations. When I make books for children it's because I have something to say in a poetic way, and it's a more irrational, profound, perhaps unconscious language. When I teach illustration, or I criticize, I use more my rational thought, my experience, my culture, and I do it to help others make beautiful books.



站酷网:在您看来职业儿童插画师需要具备哪些能力?儿童插画创作最重要的是什么?


In your opinion, what qualities should a professional children's illustrator have? What is the most important in making children's illustration?


安娜:这是一个非常复杂的问题,我希望我的插画手册能很快在中国出版,我在这本书中一直在回答这个问题。


It is a very complex question. I hope my illustrator manual will be published soon in China, where I have answered throughout this book to this question :)



站酷网:在大多数人看来,儿童插画师或者儿童文学创作者都需要有“童心”,您觉得什么是“童心”?


Most people think that children’s illustrators and writers need to be “childish”.What do you think is “childishness” ?


安娜:对真实性的渴望。


The need for authenticity.




站酷网:绘本的节奏非常重要,您是如何把控故事和画面节奏的?

The pacing of picture books is very important. How do you control the pacing of stories and pictures?



安娜:通过一个故事板,我试着将画面和留白进行编排以及编排图像的顺序,还有更重要的是色彩的平衡。一切都是画面和留白、动与静之间的关系。Through a story board I try to calibrate the full and the empty, the balance of images in sequence and above all colors. Everything is a relationship between full and empty, sound and silence.



站酷网:您既创作故事也创作插画,对于很多插画师来说,文字是一件很难的事,您是如何创作文字故事的?故事灵感通常来自于哪里?


You create both stories and illustrations. For many illustrators, writing is very difficult. How do you write stories? How do you get inspired for writing stories? 


安娜:写儿童故事的确很困难,但如果我们能记住我们小时候喜欢的故事,就会变得很容易。孩子们喜欢具体的,没有隐喻的故事。


诚实地说,我不知道故事的灵感从何而来,但我总是试图建立一个可以产生想法和灵感的环境。这使得我更多地阅读,也使得我没有负担地打破日常工作的节奏(创造力需要自由),更多地接触大自然和孩子们……

举个例子,今年夏天一个小女孩送给我一首关于安静的诗。这首诗是如此的深刻和美丽,让我发现我日常生活中安静的空间是多么的小,所以我决定去度一个没有互联网的假。我花了十天时间沉浸在宁静和自然之中。在这样的环境中,我产生了很多想法。


It is true that writing children's stories is difficult, but if we remember what stories we liked as children, it becomes easy. Children like concrete stories, without metaphors.


I have to be honest, I do not know where they come from, but I always try to build contexts where ideas can be born. It helps me to read a lot, it helps me to interrupt the rhythm of daily work with the days when I have no commitments (creativity needs freedom), helps me contact with nature, the relationship with children……


I'll give you an example: this summer a little girl gave me a poem about silence. The poem was so deep and beautiful that I remembered how little space I give to silence in my daily life. So I decided to leave on vacation without internet. I spent ten days immersed in silence and nature. I've got a lot of ideas.



站酷网:您在跟插画师合作的时候,比如Carll Cneut、 Isabelle Arsenault,你们之间是如何沟通的,从而使文本和插画更完美地结合?


When you collaborate with other illustrators such as Carll Cneut, Isabelle Arsenault,how do you communicate with each other to make sure that texts and illustrations work well together? 


安娜:这取决于与插画师的关系。比如和盖亚·斯特拉(Gaia Stella)合作,她是我的朋友,所以我们会一起工作,在博洛尼亚书展(Bologna Book Fair)见面或者通过电子邮件交流。在其他情况下,我们最好保持独立。我认为插画师必须有自由使文本转化为他自己的表达,在这种情况下,作者最好不要进行干涉。


找到文本和图像之间的和谐是出版商必须做的工作,他们需要在作者和插画师之间进行调解。


It depends on the relationship with the illustrator. In only one case, with Gaia Stella, that she was a friend, we worked together, meeting at the Bologna Book Fair or via e-mail. In other cases we preferred to remain separate. I think that the illustrator must have the freedom to make the text his own, in this case it is important that the author does not interfere.

To find the harmony between text and image is a job that the publisher must do, mediating between the author and the illustrator.



《家族的飞行》(The Flight of the Knitter Family)



站酷网:《The Flight of the Knitter Family》是由您创作的插画,在颜色和风格的选择上,您是先考虑故事,还是先考虑受众群体?插画是服务于故事还是服务于受众的?


In your illustration The Flight of the Knitter Family, what was the bigger influence on your decision of color and style, the story or the audience? Do illustrations serve the story or the audience? 



安娜:我想通过线条和颜色来重建,当我还是个孩子的时候,那种让我和家人一起度过假期的完全平静和安全的感觉。


插画的风格提供给读者一种氛围。我在梦想和现实之间寻找一条分界线。


有了这一决定便影响了文本。如果我使用一种不那么现实主义的风格,文本就会呈现出一种更诗意的隐喻。我更愿意用更现实主义的方式,告诉孩子们:这个故事是真实的,但也不会过多的强调。


I wanted to rebuild, through the line and the colors, the feeling of total peace and security that gave me the holidays with my family when I was a child.


The style of an illustration serves this: to give the reader an atmosphere. I looked for a line a color between dream and reality.


This decision has influenced the text. If I had used a style with less realism, the text would have taken on a more metaphorical, poetic flavor. I preferred to bring it into the realism field to tell the child: this story is true, but not too much.



站酷网:您对中国的儿童插画(绘本)都有哪些了解?您觉得中国的儿童插画作品和其他国家的儿童插画作品有何不同?


What do you know about Chinese children's illustrations (picture books)? How are Chinese children's illustrations different from those of other countries? 


安娜:我从去年开始了解中国插画,包括在博洛尼亚的展览,在博洛尼亚儿童书展上(中国是2018年的主办国),以及通过站酷了解中国插画。所以我的判断仍然是不成熟和肤浅的。我发现从技术上来说,插画师的水平都是很高的。但在风格层面上,我们欧洲人看来有一点奇怪:中国插画师的插画风格和气氛常常与传统中国画有关。


但其实,绘画和插画是非常不同的,差异很明显。不过,我也从漫画和连环画中受到很多影响,在欧洲,漫画和插画在风格上是非常不同的类型。


I started to learn about the Chinese illustration last year, with the exhibition and the events that took place in Bologna, at the Bologna Children’s Book Fair (China was the host country of 2018), and through ZCOOL. So my judgment is still immature and superficial. I find that technically the level of the illustrators is very high. But at the stylistic level there is something that for us Europeans is a bit strange: there are atmospheres that refer a lot to the tradition of Chinese painting. Here painting and illustration have two very different stories and the differences are more pronounced. I also found a lot of influence from the manga and the comic strip. Also in this case, in Europe, manga, comics and illustration are very different genres, in terms of style.




站酷网:在您看来,未来国际插画趋势是什么样的?对于绘本的商业性和艺术性您是怎么看的?


In your opinion, what is the future trend of international illustration? What do you think of the commercial quality and artistic quality of picture books?


安娜:在这几年儿童书籍的大骚动中,我见证了出版商自我审查的强烈回归,即使是在欧洲。在我们的社会中,欧洲发生了大规模的社会革命(如辅助生育、同性伴侣婚姻和生育的可能性),人们担心这些变化会影响很多人。这种紧张反映在儿童图书市场上,创造出了一个又一个的图书出版口号。


我不喜欢这种趋势。我相信教育类书籍和小说类书籍一定有区别。在故事书里,必须有自由表达一些深刻的东西,有关童话,无意义的故事,好玩的文字,而不是成年人的紧张!儿童读物应该是一个远离社会喧嚣的游乐场和实验场所,充满了安静、诗意和美感……但我们并没有朝着这个方向前进。


In these years of great ferment of the children's book, I witnessed a very strong return of self-censorship from publishers, even here in Europe. A self-censorship due to the large social revolutions that have occurred in Europe in our society (such as assisted reproduction, marriages and the possibility of having children for homosexual couples) and the fear that these changes have generated in many people. This tension is reflected in the children’s book market, creating books-slogans in favor of one or the other idea.


I do not like this trend. I believe there must be a difference between educational books and “fiction” books. In the second case, there must be freedom to express something profound about fairy tales, nonsense, wordplay, and not adult’s tensions! The book for children should be a playground and experimentation away from the noise of society, full of silence, poetry, beauty…, but we are not going in this direction.




专访主持:鬼马

视觉:海边的卡夫卡


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